Mail About Vaccination

Mail About Vaccination - Part 1

See the list of anti-vaccination liars here.

This site was mentioned on an anti-vaccination mailing list and the list members decided to set me straight. It is worth noting that the web site for the Australian Vaccination Network was the inspiration for the entire Millenium Project. They have been here since Day 1.

The policy here is to reproduce any critical emails sent to any email address associated with me or this site, and also to reproduce any critical discussion of me or my activities which I see or become aware of on mailing lists, Usenet newsgroups or any other outlets in any form of media. The solution is simple for anyone who does not want to see their words published here - be quiet.

The messages below have not been edited except for the removal of email addresses and extraneous lines. Words in Italics are comments and annotations by me. Some of my thoughts about vaccination can be found here.

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:27:21 +0200
From: "Jan Dingemans"
Subject: Anti-vaccination Liars webpage
To: avn@onelist.com

Hello,

Today I found a webpage made by a man/woman who has put a lot of energy in ranking all webpages regarding pro-choicevaccination issues. However his/her opinion about this issue is:

"A special place should be reserved in Hell for people who want to kill or maim children by preventing them from receiving vaccinations. This is a special case of health fraud, because most of the other sorts at least pretend to cure something"

The link is: https://ratbags.com/rsoles/categories.htm

Bye,

Jan Dutch Pro Choice Vaccination Network

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:43:03 +0800
From: Verona Gibson
Subject: Special Place in Hell!

Dear Owner of this Website!
Your disgusting attitude towards parents who believe in freedom of choice, investigating a medical procedure, or who are now living with the consequence of a vaccine 'gone wrong' - all I have to say is - WE WILL SEE WHO ENDS UP IN HELL????
Verona Gibson

From: "John"
Subject: New site for you
Date sent: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:05:00 +0100

Please add my site to your anti-vaccine liars www.whale.to/vaccines.html

Also http://whale.to/cancer.html to fraud list.

Great selection of good sites.

Any relation of quackwatch?

To: <AVN@onelist.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:06:21 +0100
From: "John"
Subject: Re: Anti-vaccination Liars webpage

What a site! I have sent my URL to be listed.

Some drug company with its list of competition, no doubt.

John

To: AVN@onelist.com
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 14:03:16 GMT
From: rebel1@Decemberx.xxx.xx
Subject: Re: Anti-vaccination Liars webpage

The "Anti-vaccination Liars" page is just brilliant. In spite of their negative comments, they have inadvertantly just made it so much easier for people to access this "anti-vaccination" information, and therefore make up their own minds on this issue. I thought it was great that they are giving free publicity to our side of the issue. It is like a soccer player kicking a goal for the opposing team! LOL. Heidi
ps And the AVN site heads the list!

From: Bronwyn Hancock
Subject: Vaccination – hello, prevention from what?
Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:10:21 +1000
Organization: Taycare Pty Ltd

To whom it may concern,

I have come across your "Anti-Vaccination Liars" Web page. Please please tell me what the documentation is that you have seen that results in your incredible unmovable faith in vaccination. It must have been pretty powerful evidence for their effectiveness, and I am surprised that I have not come across it in my thorough research of pro-vaccination material. Neither has my colleague, who has studied almost 100000 pages of medical research on this subject. On the contrary – studying the evidence, which exposes their ineffectiveness and harmfulness, totally changed her from being very pro to very anti. Many others have said the same thing.

The following is a summary of my assessment to date on this. Perhaps you can point out what you obviously have already established as glaring flaws in what I present: [A Microsoft Word document was attached to this message]

Myself and others who communicate this information also wonder what it is that you think we may be gaining out of allegedly conciously "lying" on this subject. When a parent decides not to vaccinate it simply results in a financial transaction (the sale of a dose of a vaccine) NOT being made. There is no arrangement made to send the money to us instead!! (IF ONLY!!!)

Bronwyn Hancock

To: <AVN@onelist.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 05:53:46 +1000
From: "Meryl Dorey"
Subject: RE: Anti-vaccination Liars webpage

You're right Heidi (and I love the name of the page – vaxquax :-) Not only that, but he has given me the links to a lot of pro-choice sites that are missing on the AVN web site so he's done my research for me. I am very proud that the AVN site is at the top – we must be doing something right (of course, it's alphabetical too ;-).

Thanks for pointing this site out Jan – I don't really think there is much point in corresponding with the person who has done this – they are on somebody's payroll (or payrolls) – but we are in very good company and like Heidi says – anyone who goes to this page will get some great resources to choose from for information.

Take care,
Meryl

To: AVN@onelist.com
From: Gary L Krasner
Date: Mon Aug 16, 1999 3:33 pm
Subject: Re: Anti-vaccination Liars webpage

Watch their language carefully and keep a record. If they advocate violence or other crimes against AV activists, they are breaking the law.
gary

To: AVN@onelist.com
From: "Kelly Larsen, LM"
Date: Tue Aug 17, 1999 2:21 am
Subject: Re: Anti-vaccination Liars webpage - hate crimes as well

I was offended that my site was not on there, not! This guy is a psycho. I don't think he can dole out enough publicity for any group. Just a nut with too much net time on his hands. BUT, Gary does have a very good point. I suppose the Hate Crime bill was one good thing Clinton gave us.

Kel

I am puzzled by the mention of a totally-unrelated piece of US legislation.

From: mstopp
To: i-v-y@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Anti-vaccination Liars webpage - hate crime

Everyone needs to take a look at this. It is great most of you are on here, cliff, shari.... But don't get mad. We will just list the URL on our sites and let them kow if there are any other antivaccination sites we want included.

I just am really insulted to be thrown in the same pile as multi marketers.....amway, tupperware , the true evil in this world.....boy isn't that the worst!!!!! Comparing our efforts to soap salesmen and food storage parties!!!

Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:21:17 -0700
From: Dawn Winkler
Organization: Concerned Parents for Vaccine Safety
Subject: Classification

Dear Misinformed Person:

You forgot to reserve a special place in HELL for the people who forced me to vaccinate my daughter thereby causing her to DIE. How dare you call us liars! Have you researched the issue at all? Our website is backed up by medical journal articles, so if anyone is lying, it must be the medical establishment itself. I take it as a compliment that our page is on your list, that means we are MAKING A DIFFERENCE! Paid any attention to the recent Congressional hearings on hep B vaccine or vaccine safety? I'd bet money you have not. Good luck, I've reserved a special place in hell for you, right next to me! See ya there!

--
Sincerely,
Dawn Winkler
Vice President
Concerned Parents for Vaccine Safety

Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:42:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dawn Winkler
Subject: Info
Dear Misinformed Person:

I find it rather ironic that you have a special category for tobacco makers yet you fail to see that the vaccine makers are EXACTLY THE SAME. They are protected from any liability by the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Every parent pays a tax into this fund which compensates less than one quarter of those who file claims for their dead or maimed children. Vaccines contain formaldehyde, mercury, aluminum, phenoxyethanol (antifreeze), carbolic acid, and much more. Both manufacturers and doctors are protected and cannot be sued for any damage caused by vaccines. Before this program, manufacturers were stopping production of DPT vaccine because they were getting sued left and right. Vaccine manufacturers pay for the research that show vaccines are "safe and efffective". That equates to a tobacco company paying for a study that shows cigarettes do not cause lung cancer. Get a grip.

I am not anti-vaccine nor am I trying to take vaccines from those who want them. I simply want parents to have enough information to make an informed choice. Are you against choice? Or for forced medical procedures? Should we just live in some sort of dictatorship? How would you feel if YOUR child died from a vaccine?

===
Dawn Winkler
Vice President
Concerned Parents for Vaccine Safety

Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:31:35 -0500
From: drroy
Organization: Appleton Chiropractic
Subject: I disagree with you....

I have worked with several vaccine damaged children over the years and truly believe that the dogmatists, like you, and the flat earth society membership share a lack of REAL education. PLEASE look at the REAL facts and don't close your mind to the possibility that we are the ones who are right.

Dr. Roy M. Ostenson

From: "Michelle"
Subject: in response to your ignorant web site
Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:17:51 -0400

To whom this may concern,
You said this:

"A special place should be reserved in Hell for people who want to kill or maim children by preventing them from receiving vaccinations."

I feel a special place in HELL should be reserved for people like you who want to main or kill children from vaccines which are not completely safe nor effective. Here is something else you said:

"Medical fraud falls into two broad classes - telling people lies that may kill them or someone else, and stealing from people by selling bogus medicines."

Well vaccines fall into that category, because very few doctors tell parents the dangers and risks of vaccinating. Never once did my daughters physician tell me she could have a reaction and be injured or die from vaccines. And my daughter died within 18 hours of being vaccinated.

You have a lot of sites listed as anti-vaccine sites, when in fact many of those web sites only promote the need for safer vaccines. You are a one sided fool who has no sense of reality. Reality is that vaccines are and can be dangerous to children and adults of any age, race, or sex. Thousands of children become brain damaged, autistic, or numerous other severe problems, and die from reaction to vaccines each year! Have you ever heard of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program? Well if you did, then you would know that it is a fact that children can become injured or die as a result of vaccines, and there are thousands of reports to prove it. That is why the government has a compensation program. Not that they compensate every child who was injured or died from them, mainly because they can't afford it!! What kind of research have you done about vaccines that makes you a damn expert on this issue?? Well let me tell you what, my daughters death was caused by vaccines, and I know too many parents whose children were also injured or died from vaccines as well. And I know now how serious this issue is and how real it is. What a shame that you could write a web site like this have and have NO basic knowledge of vaccines.

Let me ask you this, do you even read newspapers, or watch the news? Because if you did, you would see that vaccines are making a HUGE headline for being unsafe and having very harmful ingredients in them.

Your an ignorant person to criticize others when you don't know any true hard facts!

Michelle

~Ringmaster of "Vaccine Awareness Web Ring"

If you dare to put my site under your little list, I promise you that you will have thousands more e-mails like this coming to you! Because my web site promotes the knowledge of vaccine issues to parents who care about their children, and promotes for safer vaccines!

From: (Carrie DeMaio)
Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:18:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Anti-vaccination liars

Sadly, you are misinformed. Vaccines DO hurt many children every day - some on a subtle basis that does not even show up for years. How you can bash the tobacco industry, but not see that the same thing goes for the pharmaceutical companies, is beyond me.

They do it constantly with drugs (I have an entire article on a diabetes drug that was not thoroughly tested and killed many people - and is still on the market) And if you have ever bothered to look at the inserts that manfacturers place inside the vaccine boxes, they ALL say that no long term studies have been done on their carcinogenic effect. We and our children are simply experiments (and I was a fully vaccinated child of the '60's)

Have you heard that the rotavirus vaccine that was just introduced last year has now been stopped because it caused serious bowel problems in many children? And the Hep B vaccine, which they've given to many newborns over the years, is NOW being recommended to be postponed until 6 months of age. If this is not human experimentation, I don't know what is.

My child is almost three years old, and healthier than ANY of his vaccinated peers. He's never had a serious respiratory illness (not even the flu), ear infection, diarrhea, etc. And this is the testimony of all non-vaccinating parents, if you would bother to talk to any of us about it before telling us we should rot in hell. We are all EXTREMELY intelligent and educated people who have studied the subject well beyond what you have. We are not poor and ignorant (though I admit, I used to think the same as you, that those must be the only ones who wouldn't vaccinate their child)

I thank my God every day that he opened the door to this subject before my child was hurt by my ignorance. It's only by His grace that He gave me the open mindedness and intelligence to question this issue, and not "follow the masses blindly". I can only pray that He will do the same for you.

Sincerely, Carrie DeMaio

Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:08:27 -0400
From: Tsun
Subject: Interesting blind spots you exhibit there :-)

Hello there,

I just had a look at your web site. I do agree that it's useful to debunk things -- provided they deserve debunking. If not useful, then it's at least fun; it lets one unwind and vent steam. I don't know how many minds you can hope to change; in my experience, you can't change many minds, but what the heck . .

However, I wonder how you can put down liars; multi-level-marketing cultists; Y2K profiteers; Nicotine poisonous; and others, yet fail to consider that the same human drives and tendencies that cause them to operate might also be shared by huge medical cartels that lobby government to force parents into having their children injected with all sorts of interesting "stuff."

Just think about it: "Company A" manages to find a need and fill it. Their new vaccine will (by mandate) be injected into every newborn individual, for which "Company A" will receive something between $1 and $20 per "shot" (only a guess). Now, I'd be happy if everyone on earth would give me a mere quarter (OK, I'll settle for a dime :-). Yet the medical hoaxers rake in much more than that, with little or no choice involved. This wouldn't be too bad if they weren't harming people. . . for instance, if they lobbied government to force every parent to purchase a little cup or their glop for $10, and then pour it down the sink. I could live with that. Lethal injections? They're something else again!

How would you like it if you were forced to join (yech) Amway?

Please spend some time examining the facts (and searching your own mind for blind spots). The vaccination issue is a big one and it won't go away. Remember Nuremberg! Cui bono?

Regards,
Mr. Tsun

From:
Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:51:45 -0400
Subject: anti-vaccination liars

Thanks a lot for providing a list of orgainzations and people that I can talk to about the ill effects of vaccines! I can tell by your webpage that you are just trying to attract attention. You're not related to that Buford guy, are you? Or maybe you're just plain uneducated! Thanks again for the webpages.

I assume the question about my relation to "that Buford guy" is referring to Buford Furrow, who attacked the North Valley Jewish Community Center in Los Angeles on August 10, 1999, killing one person and injuring five others. I have no idea what this has to do with vaccination.

From: "Queen Earth"
Subject: re: anti-vaccine "liars"
Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:30:31 -0400

There are quite a few people/organizations listed on your site as liars. There must be some truth to the dangers of vaccines and why parents should take some time and investigate the issue and ask questions. I think most of the organizations are pro-choice and not "anti-vaccine". It's only fair that parents be given ALL information concerning vaccines and be allowed to give "informed" consent where their children's health and well being is concerned and not be told a bunch of lies just for companies to make a buck. Why was mercury recently taken out of the Hep B vaccine (or why was it there to begin with!) or Rotovirus vaccines halted?

Remember...if 3 people say you're a horse, ignore them. But if 20 people say you're a horse...look out, somebody may saddle you and ride you off into the sunset!

Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:55:21 -0500
From: RICHARD HILL
Organization: qnet.com
Copies to: Dawn Winkler
Subject: Pro-vaccine?

You are mistaken in your stance towards vaccination. I have been damaged by mandatory vaccines. Many others have suffered more than you could possibly realize. The crime and the special place in hell will be reserved for the politicians who sell out the American people to drug companies for a few campaign dollars and mandate vaccination ignoring the risks, deaths, and maiming of our children and adults. The majority of vaccines are not necessary and are not worth the risk to children. Do some research and if do so with an open mind you will learn that what the media feeds you is not necessarily correct.

Richard Hill

Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:27:26 -0700
From: Kandi Lovgren
Subject: hello

It is always amazing to me that people who claim to share a personal opinion, who actually spout nothing but propaganda, are so blinded by their own ignorance. After reading your page, sent to me from someone else amazed at your lack of educated views, I saw not one thing that required individual thought. Nothing original, nothing new, totally typical of cattle being lead to slaughter. Maybe you need an exam by a proctologist, perhaps you might have a few brain cells stimulated by the event. Mrs. Kandi Lovgren Mother of a vaccine injured child.

Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:18:00 -0400
From: RAYMOND GALLUP
Subject: Vaccines

Dear Sir:

Take your vaccines and put them in a place where the sun doesn't shine.

From a parent who has an autistic child due to an adverse reaction from a vaccine

Date sent: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:50:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: "A.A. Jillani"
Subject: Anti-Vaccine Liars

Dear Mr. Bowditch

As an antivaccinist liar, I welcome constructive criticism and productive debate. You, in your extremely simplistic view of the world (Y2K, sex, racism, health, mom, apple pie), seem to be a hate group dressed in sheep's clothing.

India's chief of pediatrics recently complained that three doses of the miracle polio vaccine wasn't stopping polio. Perhaps, for the health of these poor children (and the economic health of pharmaceutical giants), we should all vaccinate daily.

Even conservative estimates are showing a 10-fold increase in juvenile diabetes over the last decade. How about a six-fold increase in autism in 10-years? Or a 12-fold increase in asthma in 20 years? The research implicating vaccines is all there; only, peer reviewed journals have now realized that publishing it compromises their bedroom partnerships with health agencies. Researchers, as a result, would rather do some government-sanctioned pro-vaccine butt kissing to further their careers.

Chances are that you are on drugs for some autoimmune disorder. Every westerner is. Instead of swallowing 1950s-style government propaganda, I suggest getting off the ole fat behind and buying a ticket to a third world country. There, you will see that kids splashing in shit dumped from overpopulated urban areas don't need western medical wisdom. They need economic equality. If you yourself were living in shit, and eating shit, you would die within days. These kids are actually very tough. I know. I spent most of my life there.

Congratulations on your illiterate musings on the web. You obviously used a lot of search engines, but learned nothing -- fairly typical of bonus western intellectuallism. Since you hate liars, please come clean about your connection to the medical industry, and your source of medical truisms.

Yours untruly,
Anti-Vaccinist Liar

Date sent: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 03:00:16 -0400
From: Alison E Schettini
Subject: Vaccines and hell...

I am not a child nor do I have one, but I am already in hell and I was put there by a vaccine. Do you honestly think that so many people would devote so much time and energy to hurt their babies? I can understand the rationale behind most of the categories and comments pertaining to them that you have included on your website but this one baffles me...unless, of course, you really are a doctor and you are speaking out of GREED!!!!!
Alison E Schettini

From: "codriscll"
Subject: Thank you
Date sent: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:17:19 -0000

Thanks for the excellent resource catalogue you've put up on the web. It's really useful to find information against vaccines. Great job.
Catherine O'Driscoll Canine Health Concern

From:
Date sent: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:34:33 EDT
Subject: Question

What are your credentials to make the statement following this note? I don't mean MD....or anything like that. That does not qualify you--- MD's are taught what the medical schools and drug companies who fund them want them to know. Open your mind and challenge yourself. I would like to know which pro CHOICE documents you have read. I would also like to hear your critique of the facts one by one. As a concerned medical proffesional, if that is what you are, you should be ethically and morally challenged to research both sides of the issue extensively before passing judgements on anyone. I can also bet you have never had or treated a child that has had a vaccine reaction or died as a result of one. I have done both, too extensively. A wise man once said, "Don't ever judge a man unless you have walked a mile in his shoes." The issue is not pro or con vaccination, it is pro CHOICE based on INFORMED consent. That is what is lacking...INFORMED consent and the knowledge of the right to choose, once the TRUTHFUL facts have been laid out on the table.
Robin

A special place should be reserved in Hell for people who want to kill or maim children by preventing them from receiving vaccinations. This is a special case of health fraud, because most of the other sorts at least pretend to cure something.

From: "Robert Griffin"
Subject: Anti-vaccination web pages
Date sent: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:44:12 -0700

My child was almost killed and WAS maimed by a vaccination. It is a hellish experience to watch a 15 month old baby have to endure the torture of spinal taps, seizures, MRIs, blood tests, EEGs, a muscle biopsy, and countless other procedures. It is a hell I would not wish on my worst enemy to watch your child lose all of her development overnight. There is nothing enjoyable about watching her have to go through a year of physical and occupational therapy to regain her developmental milestones. It is not fun to see your daughter's vision permanently damaged or to have to put her through eye surgery when she has been through so much else. I pray every morning that my daughter will not have another seizure (she has a decreased seizure threshold).

A special place in Heaven ought to be reserved for children who are maimed or killed by their vaccines. I pray God's forgiveness for me for vaccinating my child without doing unbiased research first. I pray God opens your eyes and that you never see someone close to you go through one minute of what my daughter went through. Be careful in your judgements.

Jeannie Griffin

Date sent: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:29:12 -0700
From: Judy Kubrak
Organization: @Home Network
Subject: Vaccines

You have your head firmly buried in the sand. There are dozens of peer reviewed articles in mainstream medical journals confirming the damage that vaccines have caused. Pharmaceutical companies are concerned only about profits. Saving lives is definitely not what motivates them! Vaccines are all about $$$$$.

Your "concern" for others denies that everyone should have the freedom to look at ALL the information and make informed decisions. This is not concern, but a desire to control the actions of others accompanied by an obvious underlying fear of the unvaccinated! You have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated - after all, you and others like you are fully protected from diseases by all those wonderful vaccines you have chosen to have injected into your body. You have the freedom to choose what is best for you and so do we!

Judy Kubrak

From:
Date sent: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:42:29 +0100
Subject: vaccines

This guy is truly a nut. How the pharmacuetical mafia must be laughing its head off at this bloke's rantings. Still, like all the rest of the comatose, duped brainwashed herd who believe the lies of the legalised drug pushers, who, for profit reasons alone, keep the nation constantly sick - and as such in constant "need" for ever more drugs (funded by the innocent taxpayer!) - the truth, one day, will strike home. A bitter pill indeed. Still, lets thank him for the free publicity!

Chris Pedler
British Anti-Vivisection Association

This message was addressed to me but talks about me in the third person. Perhaps it was meant to go to a mailing list

Date sent: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:08:01 -0700
From: "Kelly M. Larsen, LM"
Organization: Genesis Midwifery - Vaccine Information Network of Arizona
Subject: organizations

Don't forget this "choice" site.

http://www.azavenue.com/kelly/organizations.htm

This is someone asking for their site to be included in the list. The site was already in when the request was made.

From: "Susan Cameron-Block"
Subject: What an offensive load of crap!!!
Date sent: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:44:20 -0700

Are you really serious here?
Have you just posted this list or have you read any of it?

You wouldn't happen to have two little letters after your name?

I found your intro offensive!

Let's chat. I promise to be NICE!!

Susan

To: <avn@onelist.com>
From: "Jan Dingemans"
Date: Wed Aug 25, 1999 4:38 am
Subject: AGAIN THE ANTI-VACCINATION WEBPAGES

Hello,

The webmaster of the anti-vaccination-webpages has made a compilation of all emails he has received after publishing his url on this mailinglist.

He has also written a reply. We are again liars. Quote: "The alternative world may not only offer a different view of reality, but it must also have different rules of truth and logic. In the real world there is a word for people who say things which they know to be incorrect. We call these people "liars".

Have fun, cry or whatever!

PS: Nice illustrations to enlighten our webpages

Bye,

Jan Dutch Pro Choice Vaccination Network

Note the out-of-context quote. I am glad he feels that images of madness in the 18th century would "enlighten" his web site.

To: AVN@onelist.com
From: "Kelly M. Larsen, LM"
Date: Wed Aug 25, 1999 5:01 am
Subject: Re: url comments anti-vaccinations page

Oh this is funny! He's a MEMBER of AVN's e-mail list? He's got to be since he's extracted everything out of the list that's got to do with him. What an ego, what a narcissist! He's got WAAAY more time on his hands than anyone else I know! The only people who view his pages has got to be him and us! He doesn't even have a web counter.

woo ooo ! This is funny!

From: Carrie DeMaio
Date sent: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:25:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dear Peter:

By this, "In the real world there is a word for people who say things which they know to be incorrect. We call these people "liars"" are you calling us all liars? I find it hard to believe there are this many people who are just "lying" about this subject for the fun of lying. We believe the things that we say, and should not be accused of being liars. If you'd like to call us "opinionated" or "irrational" than that's your opinion. But it should not be said that we are saying these things when we "know" they are lies, because we believe they're the truth.

And "Compensation funds exist not because of any knowledge of specific problems, but because some risk is recognised in any medical procedure or treatment. If someone is damaged through neglect, ignorance or incompetence, then the full force of the law should be brought against whoever caused the damage. Individual bad practitioners, however, do not invalidate the entire medical process any more than bad mechanics make us give up motor vehicles or crooked lawyers make us reject the judicial system."

Well, the gov is now trying to dissolve this compensation fund and put the money into more research, which you should be happy about. And if it's dissolved, then so should the mandatory vaccine policy, since they will no longer compensate parents for "obeying the law" and their doctors "orders".

Also, I would like to know how you think that an "individual bad practitioner" can cause a vaccine reaction? They're aren't doing major surgery - just giving a shot. Wouldn't it make more sense to say that the vaccine itself is the cause, and not through neglect or incompetence by millions of good pediatricians? At least if you blame the vaccine, you can say that medicine has its risks - nothing is 100% safe. But to blame docs for "giving" a shot incorrectly is a little strange. I don't think the government woud be wiling to pay for the possible malpractices of any doctors. By your words, though, that's exactly what they're doing.

Sincerely, Carrie DeMaio

From: "shane moore"
Subject: no vaccines
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:59:22 -0700

because i choose not to vaccinate my children does not give you the right to put me in the pool with racist and pedophiles. i choose not vaccinate my children for basically 2 reasons. one i have researched and have decided that the chemicals and other thing that are included in the are not good for my children. second i beleive that Almighty God will protect my children. with alot of these vaccines man has decided he knows what is better for us.

i know we disagree but please do not put me in with those groups. it really hurts my feelings.

Your fellow human being,
shane moore

From: "Queen Earth"
Subject: re: private email posting
Date sent: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 04:16:26 -0400

I think it's very tacky of you to post the private email I sent you on your PUBLIC website without my knowledge or consent. If you want to prove a point, please leave me out of it. That's why it's so hard to TRUST anyone!

People with no names have even less right to privacy than people who don't bother to read that whatever they send will be posted, which is none.

Date sent: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:14:37 -0400
From: AJ
Subject: An Apology?

Dear Mr. Bowditch: I have heard no less than 50 physicians relate the sob stories of morbidity and mortality that you use for your blanket apology to parents of vaccine damaged kids.

A quarter of third world children go to bed without dinner. Several thousand die of starvation nightly; others succumb to disease because starving kids have no resistance. When the West (including Australia) was economically poor, good food, sanitation, and fresh indoor air were all scarce (add to that physicians who promoted primitive healing techniques--blood-letting, leaches, mercury, running naked in the snow, etc.). Mr. Bowditch, disease occurs naturally in those conditions (no one catches polio in front of a computer monitor in New South Wales).

Sadly, the propaganda machine has written the history for us and we now consume it like the truth. To use a medical term, the relationship between vaccines and disease eradication has only been temporal at best (the world was prospering and getting healthier anyway). The worst outbreak of polio in Africa's history is happening NOW (Angola)! Of course, in the eleventh hour of U.N. and W.H.O. polio eradication propaganda, this is not headline news. The cause of the outbreak is simply war, which causes famine. Handing a starving kid a pharmaceutical crutch doesn't save his life. Western aid teams always leave at the heels of the television cameras--all infectious disease deaths after vaccination campaigns are always "famine." Congratulations to you and your friends who have an "interest" in pharmacology. I'll wave at your heaven-bound chariot while my ass is on fire.

Yours untruly,
A.A. Jillani
Anti-Vaccinist Liar (in hell)

Update March 2002 - The messages about me on the AVN mailing list were restored to this page in March 2002. Ms Dorey had again stated that the list welcomed opposing views, so I asked to be resubscribed. In her reply to me she said that I had been banned from the list because I had been "abusive and disrespectful". As I had never posted anything to the list in my life but had had to tolerate being abused and vilified in that forum, I felt that the only reasonable response to this hypocrisy was to publish in full what people had been saying about me. You can see all correspondence relating to the ban here.

From: "jw eh"
Subject: Vaccination
Date sent: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 03:16:44 GMT

It would be of great service if you could please direct me (and your readership) to scientific evidence that proves vaccination to be beneficial. I've searched thoroughly but have not yet found anything except authoritative assertions. The public health services just sends out moronic pamphlets and I've yet to meet a doctor who knew anything more than the basic propaganda I was fed in grade school. One of the links you provide mentions that approximately $800 million has been spent compensating parents for vaccination damage to children during the last decade. Is this true?

-Jim

From: "Michelle"
Copies to: "Dawn Winkler"
Subject: liars?
Date sent: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:05:34 -0400

Once again, you have proven yourself as the largest fool on the Internet. All the web sites you have listed as anti-vaccination liars are web sites who have thoroughly researched, reviewed, and examined the entire vaccine issue and/or controversy. The only "LIAR" is you! I say that because you have titled these intelligent people as liars whom have devoted so much time and energy to prove that vaccine reactions are real and can happen. VAERS gets over 800 reports a month on vaccine reactions. So if vaccines were safe, there wouldn't be such a high number of reactions. You are a "LIAR" because you have failed to prove that vaccines are COMPLETELY SAFE AND EFFECTIVE"!

You are deluded since you can't make one logical point as to why you think or believe any of these web sites are wrong about vaccines. Where is your proof? Where is your research? What are your findings?

Your right about ignorance not being an excuse, so you are the most ignorant human being on the face if this earth.

Read these next few lines, question yourself after you read it. If you resist reading what you disagree with, how will you ever acquire deeper insights into what you believe? The things most worth reading are precisely those that challenge our convictions.

If you think I am ignorant or a liar, then prove me wrong, I challenge you NOW to show me REAL proof that vaccines are totally safe and totally effective. Prove to me my daughter didn't die from vaccines. Prove to me that the thousands of reported reactions to vaccines are from something other than vaccines. Prove to me you know something about vaccines, or the dangers, etc..

I have a good feeling that you will not respond to me, since you are ignorant and know nothing about vaccines! Please do post this on your e-mail page. I will laugh at you if you don't!!!!

By the way, have a nice day!
Michelle

Date sent: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:45:48 -0700
From: Dawn Winkler
Organization: Concerned Parents for Vaccine Safety
Subject: The Earth Isn't Flat

You're a real winner. Please do feel free to put this little letter on your site. I ask you one more time, if I can back up my claims with peer reviewed scientific studies, then how am I a liar? Are you even listening to yourself? We are the ones saying the earth is not flat. You are the one saying it is. Vaccines are not the Almighty life savers everyone thinks they are. Have you done ONE DROP of research on this topic? It is so absolutely clear that you have not. Yet, you act like a gigantic pompous ass. You are deluding yourself my dear. After many years of research and a dead child, I'm damned confident that I AM RIGHT. So what makes you think you have the answers? What research or experience do you have? Oh, let me guess, are you an MD (quack)?

"All truth goes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally, it is accepted as self-evident." Schopenhauer

p.s. still saving that special place in hell for you right next to me! See ya there babe! XOXO

--
Love and Kisses,
Dawn Winkler
Vice President
Concerned Parents for Vaccine Safety
http://home.sprynet.com/~noshots/index.htm

Some years later Ms Winkler provided an excellent example of how insane an anti-vaccination liar can be. You can see the evidence here.

Date sent: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 02:46:19 EST
Subject: Thanks

Looking past your tainted and obviously undereducated opinion at the beginning of your site, you have given me some great links in which I will be able to use to further educate the public on why NOT to vaccinate!!! A person makes themselves inferior with comments such as you made!

Dr. Bev
P.S. Don't bother to return an email. I won't read it!

From: Patrick B. Komeshak
Subject: Thank you!
Date sent: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 21:45:52 -0600
Organization: Komeshak Chiropractic

Thank you for your help in alerting parents to the dangers of vaccinations. With your site, millions of people will be able to access some of the most reputable sites on the web. It is obvious that you are not fully educated on the topic of vaccination.

At one time, I was of the belief that vaccinations were a medical miracle. Once I researched the subject beyond the level of mass advertisements and promotional literature, I realized that it was filled with lies and unscientific propaganda. Although I appreciate being recognized by your site, I must express my anger at being associated with rapists, nazis and the KKK. These are hate organizations, whereas mine is for Christian parents, who are doing the best that they can for their children. I understand your goal with this site, and I applaud you for acting on your principles, but I do wish that you would not associate our group with these evil organizations.

Sincerely,
Dr. Patrick Komeshak
Komeshak Chiropractic

My comment on the vaccination page about association with other categories applied to people who REQUESTED that their anti-vaccination sites be listed there. It was never intended to apply to all the sites listed on the page, and this should be obvious from the choice of words I used.

From: Kathryn Hovvels
Subject: anti-vaccinaton liars
Date sent: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:00:20 -0800

I don't understand,

you obviously see through idiots who try to con the general public into their way of thinking. You are not taken in by the crap these people dish out . You abhore racism, sexism, homophobia,.......but where the hell did you get the idea that those who promote vaccination as the safe end to infectious diseases are speaking the truth?

You either believe this , or- you are a very clever person, (who - knowing that people always want to read what others tell them is wrong bad or downright indecent) - and are using reverse psychology to con us all into retaliating. Well, I know this is what we do with three year olds but I've just taken the bait.

Do you have some superior knowledge that us mere mortals have not had the the priveledge to be gifted with? Please share that knowledge with the rest of us.

How do you know that vaccines cause no harm? You is are not aware that vaccines do cause harm until you are the parent of a vaccine damaged child, whose life, soul, personality and future are destroyed in one single jab from an unsuspecting health worker. You are right - bacteria DO cause disease. Why, then should they NOT cause disease just because they are put into a syringe. If you read up on this subject you would realise that 90% of the deaths due to infectious disease occured BEFORE vaccinaton was introduced. You would realise that in the USA 90% of Polio cases are caused BY the polio jab, it is NOT effective - (as admitted by the maker himself) and you would realise that in th USA, where vaccination is a huge money -making scam 97.5% of kids are vaccinated against measles and there was a huge mealses epidemic in 1994. (Why was it not the unvaccinated kids who caught the disease?)

Please answer these questions, as there are thousands and thousands of parents who need this information. Come on - don't be greedy.......share your knowledge with the rest of us.

Everyone trusted and hailed X-rays as wonderous,- until they were discovered to be carcinogenic. Are you telling us all that YOU (and only YOU) know vaccines are safe. How can you make such a trusting judgement when you are obviously in mistrust of a lot of other notions that do not make sense.

P.S. Vaccinations belongs somewhere between the Politics and the Pseudoscience groups.